Monday, June 23, 2008

BATF Bound Book Requirement And Getting C&R Process

As you all know I applied for and was granted a FFL C&R. Having one is a great thing...I have seen Mosin Nagant Rifles for as low at $69 plus shipping right to your door. Once you are granted this license by the BATF (it is easy to get as long as your not a criminal or have mental issues.) you are REQUIRED to keep a bound book of all your C&R purchases.

The BATF can request to see your bound book at any time (most likely they will contact you via letter or phone call to setup a date - and you will need to comply). It is imperative you keep this record and accurately record all of your transactions in it. There are some arguments as to the rules around the bound book but here is what I have been able to gather (my rules are the most conservative to be safe). 1.) Must follow a specific format. 2.) Must be a physical log, electronic logs are not acceptable (although I think they are for regular FFL's and you can send in a form to BATF asking for a special disposition to use electronic records). 3.) Must be retained even if you give up your license. 4.) You must record any C&R purchase in the book from the time you have the license forward.

One good example is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). You can buy an Garand from them with no FFL or FFL C&R. If you have a C&R, because the Garand is a C&R weapon YOU MUST record this in your bound book even though you did not need your C&R to make the purchase (People have given me grief on this - do what you want, but Surplus Rifle followed up with ATF and this is FACT, the only weapons you don't need to to record are weapons not desginated C&R eligible period). You must also record any sale or "give away" of one of your C&R weapons in the disposition portion of your bound book. Purchases or sales of modern firearms (not designated as a C&R) do not need to be recorded in your log. Below is an example of an accepted format for your bound book:


Below are pictures of my "bound book" - I already have a space for my SKS - arrives Monday...Hurray!

The ATF rules and regulations will make you want to poke your eyes out because of the wording. I would always recommend to err of the side of caution unless you want masked agents breaking down your door and enjoy prison food.

Disclaimer: The process below worked for me. Your mileage may vary. Be A Survivor is not responsible for your success or failure. Don't screw with the ATF as they will make you their bitch in short order. In other words don't lie, cheat or break any of their rules. You have been warned. - Flea

 ---BELOW IS A REPRINT OF HOW TO OBTAIN YOU C&R FROM SURPLUS RIFLE (SurplusRifle.com): ---

WHAT IS A C&R LICENSE? The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF or ATF) was originally under the control of the Dept. of Treasury, but in 2003, the law enforcement portions of ATF were transferred to the Dept. of Justice. ATF is essentially a tax collecting, law enforcement and regulatory arm of Justice/Treasury dealing in alcohol, tobacco and firearms (duh). In terms of firearms, the ATF is the federal government agency that issues so called Federal Firearms Licenses (FFL). There are several types of FFLs that one can get. The “full license” that allows the licensee to purchase pretty much any firearm is what is called an “FFL 01” type or dealers license. This is a business type license, not used for collecting, but rather for buying and selling to others. There are other categories that deal with manufacturing and importing firearms. The type of license we will focus on is the “FFL 03 C&R” or simply “C&R”. The FFL 03 C&R, or Curios and Relics is, simply put, using the words of my wife, a neutered FFL 01 license. The C&R allows you to purchase eligible firearms across state lines, transfer eligible weapons between licensed people, and order eligible weapons through the mail (UPS or FedEx). It is NOT a business license; it is purely for your own collecting activities. You have to be careful about that. Yes, you can sell a C&R acquired eligible firearm, but you cannot do it for your “livelihood”. You may sell or “dispose” of a C&R weapon to anyone not prohibited in your state, or to a licensee in another state. A C&R license allows you to purchase rifles, pistols, shotguns and machineguns (yep, there are some of them too) that are on the ATF C&R list. Basically, these are weapons that are at least 50 years or older. HOWEVER, just because a weapon is 50 or more years old, does not make it an automatic C&R eligible weapon. ATF has a web page that lists all of the C&R eligible weapons at: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm Some listings of interest are: All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946. All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946. All shotguns, properly marked and identified as mfd. for any military organization prior to 1946 and in their original military configuration only U.S. Rifle, caliber .30, M1, original issue only, produced prior to 1958. The key word in these lists are “original”. That is, if the rifle was altered as a sporter, it no longer is eligible as a C&R rifle. One has to be careful about that. The question is, at what point is it considered “altered”? There is also some debate about rifles that were altered by the military into another military rifle, such as a 7mm 1916 Spanish Mauser into a 7.62 NATO “Guardia Civil”. There are some that argue that it was altered and is therefore not eligible. I had sent in that specific question to ATF. Here is the reply: “You also asked if the “Modelo 1916 Spanish Short rifle Mauser” rifle is classified as a curio or relic. Any Spanish Model 1916 military rifles in original military configuration quality as curios or relics as that term is defined in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, part 178, section 178.11 {NOTE: See insert above}. This classification includes the FR7 and FR8 variations chambered for the 7.62 Cetme cartridge. These curios or relics may be transferred to federally licensed collections as provided in 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and 27 CFR part 478. They are still firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(3).” Okay…as *I* read the ATF reply, the “Guardia Civil” and the FR7/8 rifles ARE C&R eligible rifles being that they are “original” rifles, HOWEVER, they must have be at least 50 years old (first requirement listed). I suppose you may argue that these rifles, regardless of when they were converted, would be covered under the “…novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.” part of section 178.11. If you have a specific example that you are wondering if it is a C&R eligible firearm, you need to contact ATF Technical Division directly (in writing only) and send them specific information on the weapon and photos if you can. They will make a ruling on the weapon and contact you back. DO NOT BOTHER to call a local ATF region office with a firearms ruling. They will only steer you back to the ATF Technical people. The local ATF is good for general questions about the C&R and help in filling out the forms. The address to submit a letter of ruling and eligibility of a firearm is: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Firearms Technology Branch 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, WV 25401 On that note, you must also realize that there are federal firearms laws and also state and local laws. You are required to follow both. To help you out in your local state, ATF sends a copy of current state laws (all the states) in your welcome license kit. A C&R is NOT a license to carry a concealed weapon nor overwrites your local firearms regulations and laws! In some cases, some sellers will require a C&R for ammo purchase. This is more for proof of age.

HOW DO I GET A C&R? You have to meet some minimum qualifications first: 21 years or more of age; You cannot be prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving or possessing firearms or ammunition; (i.e., you are not a convicted felon, also, you have to be a US citizen or permanent resident or have special dispensation) You have not willfully violated the Gun Control Act (GCA) or its regulations; You have not willfully failed to disclose material information or willfully made false statements concerning material facts in connection with his application (in other words, you did not lie on your application!) If you think you are eligible for the license, then there are a couple of ways to get the required forms. You USED to be able to download the forms or get them sent from your local ATF office. That is no longer the case. Now you need to either contact their central distribution center via online or phone. There is no charge to get the forms. Online: go to http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm and request (on the right side of the screen) “F7CR 5310.16 Application for License (Collector of Curios and Relics) Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms” They will ship the forms to you in a week or two. Phone: Call (703) 455-7801 and put in your request for a “Form 7CR, Curio or Relic application kit” Again, it will take a week or two to get the forms. In about a week or two, you will receive a packet in the mail that has a couple of forms in it. I would highly recommend that you photocopy the forms and use the copies to “practice and edit” with before you fill out the ones to be sent in. The new form is four pages long, instead of the two from before. As in previous versions, there are two copies to each form, Copy 1 goes to ATF and Copy 2 gets submitted to your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) for you area. An easy way to figure out who your CLEO, answer the questions, “who would come to your door when you dial 911?”. New to this form: · The ability to pay via credit card, information filled out on the form · Additional space to list names of people for multi person (corporate, partnership) licenses · Country of citizenship block · Race and Ethnicity information (check boxes) · Residence phone number · Addition of the 18 USC 922 (g)(5)(B) Certification of Compliance information on the form · Previous FFL license information requests · Signature block has additional statements on release of information. Let’s go through it step by step:

F7CR Form items: (use a ball point ink pen and print or type to fill out the form) Items 1-6: Self explanatory. Use full names and do not use abbreviations in addresses. Item 7: The majority of us will check “individual”. When I asked ATF about other category examples they gave museums as a corporation and a partnership as being held by several friends. It still lacks distinct clarity. Item 8: If you want to pay via credit card, fill this section out. Make sure that you use the billing address of the credit card if it is different from where you want the license address to go to. Make sure that you sign the authorization to allow ATF to charge the card. Item 9: For each person 1. Make sure you use your FULL name, no initials. 2. Social Security number and position. In the case of an individual, you can use “owner”. I would think that “collector” would work also. 3. Give your FULL mailing address. If you can, do not use abbreviations at all. If you lived at other addresses in the past 5 years, you will need to note them as well. 4. Give country of citizenship. Note: if you are a nonimmigrant alien, you will need to complete items in #10. For a definition of nonimmigrant alien, see the back of the form. If you are a US citizen, you will not need to complete ALL of Item #10 5. Give place of birth 6. Date of birth 7. Check your race/ethnicity. It appears this is MANDATORY, not simply requested. 8. Sex (yes please!) 9. Residence phone number, with area code. Item 10: Fill in “A.” with your name (if you are a US citizen) then skip to Item 11. If you have nonimmigrant status you will need to fill out parts B and C as well. Item 11. This is a new section that asks about previous FFL issuances. If you mark any YES, you will need to supply a separate sheet answering the question in detail. Item 12&13. Make sure you check EACH of the line items either Yes or No. You may need to attach a separate explanatory page if required. Item 14. Make sure that you check (Initial) EACH of the boxes. This is where you agree that you will check on your local laws, you will follow your local laws and also contact your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) (sheriff, chief etc.), which you will have to provide the NAME of and ADDRESS of. Item 15. This certification is different and much more in depth compared to the old form. Whereas before you were simply stating you certify that the application was true to the best of your knowledge, the new form goes on to give ATF authorization to perform a background check as well as access employment, military, medical and police records. MAKE SURE YOU SIGN AND DATE THE FORM. NOW GO BACK AND TRIPLE CHECK YOUR FORM! The license costs $30 for 3 years. If you did not authorize the use of a credit card, MAKE SURE YOU ENCLOSE A CHECK OR MONEY ORDER payable to ATF. Write your SSN on your check or money order as well. Fill out the second copy of the F7CR exactly as you did the first and photocopy the entire form (front and back) of both the ATF and CLEO copies for your records.

AND FINALLY: Send the ATF form and payment to the address listed on the back of the form. You can mail out the CLEO copy the same time you send your form to ATF, you do not need to wait on any response from the CLEO. It is their duty to contact ATF if they have an issue with your application. The CLEO copy does not need payment information attached. AGAIN, before you send off the forms to the ATF and your CLEO, make copies for yourself. MAKE SURE YOU COPY THE BACK SIDE OF THE FORMS AS WELL for your records. There are contact numbers and addresses on the back. In addition to the two forms, I also got a copy of “Firearms Curios and Relics List” (revised April 2004) in the packet. This booklet lists all the firearms that are regarded as C&R eligible PLUS it lists the laws that govern C&R licenses. The publication number is ATF P 5300.11 Revised April 2004. I would highly recommend that when you order the forms from the distribution center, you request one of these books as well. In the past, this book has been part of the “welcome package” that typically shows up before they ship your license copy, but it never hurts to make sure that you have one on hand.

WHAT TO DO ONCE YOU GET THE LICENSE? If all goes well, your license should be mailed to you in 6 to 8 weeks. These times vary by quite a bit. If it seems like it is taking too much time, you may contact ATF about it. The number is on the back of the F7CR form. For sure, your check will be cashed sooner than later! ATF will send you ONE copy of the license. DO NOT SIGN THE ORIGINAL!!! The VERY first thing to do to is make clear photocopies of the license. Make like a dozen or more. Then put the original in a safe place where you can find it again. You will use the COPIES when you buy/sell C&R weapons. You will need to sign copies in INK prior to using them. ATF will also send you a “welcome” kit that will contain a current copy of State firearm laws and some other info. This will come separate from your license. When you get the kit, do not freak out. There is a LOT of extra stuff there that actually does not pertain to C&R licensees. It seems they send out generic kits to all new licensees. For some more general information on your license, see the ATF FAQ list at: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm Now, that you have that half sheet of paper what do you do? What else?!? You start to BUY!!! Many companies will only sell to licensed people, so you need to send them a copy of the license (signed) and request to be put on their list. They have to have a signed license on file before they will ship a firearm. What I did was make a form letter requesting I be put on their mailing list, that they file my license and also offer me any discounts that they offer and sent them to various companies with a license signed copy.

---END OF REPRINT---

...that is all.

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25 comments:

  1. Jeezus H. Christ, I finally got the friggin' order put in! It took 4 tries, after completely closing out the website and trying again. What a pain in the ass! Typical government. Well, we'll see if I get mine!

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  2. It takes about 2 weeks to get the form. Fill it out..send one copy to BATF with check...send second copy to chief law enformcement officer in your area...most likely your sheriff. Takes about three months to get license. DO NOT sign original...make copies and sign those. Send them to the dealers and get discounts and C&R weapons shipped to your door ;)

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  3. With the C&R you can also buy C&R eligible firearms thru third parties directly (in addition to the big dealers/clearing houses), such as via Gunbroker.com, etc.

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  4. Requested my C&R form about a week ago, hopefully to be received and sent off by the end of the month.
    About the address (Item 9): Does it have to be your residence? As with my C&R form request, I've been using my work address pretty much exclusively as my ship to address for all online orders, etc., even changing my credit cards and bank accounts to my work address as well. I would like to continue this with future gun and ammo orders. Would this be an issue with BATF? If BATF requires that my residence address appear on my C&R FFL, could a dealer still ship to my work/different address, or must it match the FFL?
    Thanks! Great blog!

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  5. Dealers are ONLY legally allowed to ship to the address on the FFL C&R. Keep in mind as well that UPS will require a signature, no getting around that. I suppose you could put your work address, I would double check with the ATF and your employer who may not like the idea of guns being shipped to their location. If you use your work address, if you change employment you will need to fill out an additional form because your current license will need to be updated (invalid)...until that happens you would not be able to use it. This takes a few weeks as well...

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  6. Of course, the flip side applies if you move or are planning to move (change residences). Something to keep in mind.

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  7. Dude - I have no idea where you got this "information" but is wrong on so many levels - the Garand having to be on a C&R book (WRONG). The ATF visiting ANYTIME - WRONG.

    Where do you get this false info and why do you spread it without checking your facts?

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  8. Dude - I have no idea where you got this "information" but is wrong on so many levels - the Garand having to be on a C&R book (WRONG). The ATF visiting ANYTIME - WRONG.

    Where do you get this false info and why do you spread it without checking your facts?

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  9. Dude...try the ATF rule book which I have a copy of. Have fun serving your 10 years in whatever Federal hellhole they sentence you too....dude.

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  10. The author is partially correct, the ATF can audit your bound book at any time. However they can't come into your home with your permission. They will contact you and arrange a time and place to meet, most likely the ATF office, but it could be anywhere you agree upon, you do not have to let them in your home (unless they come with a search warrant, which is a totally different animal).

    And the timeline is a little off, at least for me anyway. I mailed my forms 8/10/08, the (personal) check was deposited 8/13, and my license arrived in the mail 8/27. I was shocked to see it so fast. For those with math issues, that's 17 days!

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  11. I am actually going to clarify the post because some people think that I mean some ATF agaent will be at your door at 3am on Sunday. What I mean is that they can make the request at anytime and you will have to comply. It will most likely occur with either a letter or a phone call telling you when you will need to present the info.

    17 days is very fast. The fastest I have ever heard of, you are lucky. The typical turn around is 3 months...mine was just short of that.

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  12. Bingo, you got it. They will notify you in writing or by phone, you will contact your local office and arrange a meeting. It can be anywhere, even McDonald's! You show up with your "Bound Book" and it gets reviewed, maybe a few questions, and that's it! And they can't just come in your home. People thinking that are hearing stories of the days when they still granted 01/FFL's to "in-home store". In the instance of an 01/FFL (regular gun store) the ATF CAN come in and inspect your logs at any time (normal business hours of course).

    I was honestly shocked when I saw it! I kept looking for my check to clear, but I just missed it bc it cleared so fast!! Most people I am hearing from is 3-4 weeks...

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  13. I would sorta like one of those but hate the idea of dealing with the ATF in any way shape or form. Might just have to bite the bullet and get one. Cheap rifles and pistols are calling me.

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  14. Very good read. Is the ATF having problems with sending out forms? I put an order in around Dec 17 2008 and have never seen it.

    I put in another order about the first full week of January 2009, still nothing.

    I did it again today...only time will tell.

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  15. the first time i requested the form i never got one. the second time, it took like 3 months to get the from (by which time i had forgotten i requested it). just sent it out a few days ago though, so will see how it goes. looking forward to getting it!

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  16. My FFL 03 took 8 days from sending it to receiveing it in the mail.

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  17. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  18. Hi Dude,

    What a great article on a topic that's so near and dear to our hearts. Thanks for sharing the closet-love!

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  19. Hi Dude,

    In this era of blog ,we easily get nice & updated information for research purposes... I'd definitely appreciate the work of the said blog owner... Thanks!

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  20. Forms are now available on the atf web site. Again! Finally

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  21. Forms available for download at:

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-16-notice.html

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  22. The info on what is and is not a C&R seems to be slightly off.

    Directly from the ATF's website (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearm/curios-relics/):

    "Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list."

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  23. Good day! This post couldn't be written any better! Reading this post reminds me of my old room mate! He always kept talking about this. I will forward this article to him. Fairly certain he will have a good read. Many thanks for sharing!

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  24. I AM NOT A LAWYER. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

    There is a huge amount of confusion concerning C&R. Even gun stores, just a few miles apart, have told me entirely contradictory things.

    So I try to read, and re-read the ATF Guidelines until they make sense. Not an easy thing.

    You'll also need to read USPS Guidelines carefully. I "think" you can ship Handguns by Priority Mail between FFL's. Search for Form 1508.

    Often I just search for the weapon in question on the internet. If major retailers claim what they're selling is C&R, I figure it is.

    But if it's a truly oddball firearm, and you're not certain whether it's on the ATF List or 50+ years old, it's your call.

    I wouldn't want to be in court explaining why I "think" a Firearm is C&R. But I'm a chicken.

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